Auxiliary Switch | Project Golden Rule (LED Version)

[Eric_Inovelli]

Hey all! Ok, time to make some replies – sorry, been super crazy busy with making PPT’s for investors. Hopefully the light at the end of the tunnel is near.

@PJF

Swipe the LED strip to set the dimmer level. That is a neat feature

Yeah, I do think this is really cool as well – I do agree with @harjms and @DROCK_IN_NC in that it can be a hassle. I also struggle with my kids and the Brilliant switch lol. But, I do really like the look and aesthetics of the slider!

@mamber

Understood. The house wiring may determine where the Master/Aux switches have to be placed. But the question was about switch location with regard to Notifications…

My bad

@mamber

My guess (which Inovelli would need to confirm) was that the Aux switch will mimic any notification on the Master switch. So they would all display the same notification, regardless of their location as first or last or middle switch in the circuit. Is that correct or no?

We’re hoping to – I’m not quite sure how we’ll pull this off yet as the aux switch will have limited, “smarts” in it. Possibly it could be pulled off with an MCU of some-sorts, but that’s beyond my pay-grade lol.

@PJF

I’m curious how the aux switch with only 2 wires gets the power to drive the LED strip. Does the traveler both power the aux switch and transmit the control data?

@harjms

So you’re saying there is power on neutral. You would t get shocked if you became ground if there was t any voltage on neutral. Also I believe sub panels neutrals and grounds aren’t bonded.

I’m not too sure on this debate. We have a discussion with the manufacturer next week and we’ll try to better understand.

Question for you guys though – what if we put a 3rd terminal on the aux switch that acted as a constant source of power? I really only know the basics of electrical, but could we just do something like this:

Non-Neutral:

Neutral:

Somehow have the PCB use the constant line to power the LED bar and, “smarts” whereas the travelers would detect paddle presses as normal?

@MRobi

Another vote here to support double tap. I just swapped out a GE dimmer at the top of my stairs with an Inovelli one. The GE dimmer supported double tap through the aux switch at the bottom of the stairs. The Inovelli doesn’t Having an aux switch that has the light bar and supports double tap would be perfect!

Quoting you again lol my bad – can you let me know what your exact setup is (ie: GE Enbrighten + Hubitat)? This way we can mimic it. We tried with our current manufacturer to get this to work using the quick change in voltage/current/etc but the variances were too small for the smart switch to detect.

So, we’re curious on how GE’s and HomeSeer’s does this. We do have the other manufacturer (who’s making ZigBee) working on this feature though and they’re the ones building the aux switch.

@travellerny

Two light fixtures (each with smart bulbs) on a staircase with an Inovelli dimmer in the main box with the local relay disabled. The dumb companion switch is currently covered with a magnetic cover. How would the Golden Rule AUX switch still honor the local relay disabled at its location?

Excellent question – the limitation here is the smart switch, as much as it pains me to say. Our current Z-Wave switches do not have the capability to work with non-Z-Wave smart bulbs in a 3-Way setting (to my knowledge, I’ll have to check with @EricM_Inovelli – we may have fixed this).

Think of an auxiliary switch as a non-smart switch that acts more like a momentary switch. Through the traveler wires, the smart switch can detect the current/voltage (I can’t remember what we use) change and it adjusts the load accordingly.

The way it works with Z-Wave (and possibly non-Z-Wave, I really can’t remember) is that when the relay is locked on the smart switch, it interprets the voltage change from the aux switch and says, “no, don’t manually dim these bulbs, but rather send an Association command to the Z-Wave bulb to dim digitally”.

Hopefully I’m making sense lol.

Let me double check with Eric M on non-Z-Wave bulbs, and if the smart switch does support this, you should be able to put Project Golden Rule in there (and also GE/HomeSeer aux switches now).

@travellerny

One fan/downlight that has the LZN36 installed at the main box. Though I doubt it, would I be able to wire/configure the Golden Rule AUX switch at the companion location to turn on/off or control either only the fan or light (I’m not choosy which one).

Unfortunately, not… another limitation with our switch. Dangit lol.

The only way to get this to work would be by installing a separate fan/light switch and associate them together via Z-Wave. We will also be working on a remote once funding comes in that would solve these problems as well. It would actually solve both your #1 and #2 question. Hopefully we can get this out quickly!

[travellerny]

Thanks @Eric_Inovelli (from my perspective), a very quick reply ). I await your followups whenever you get them. It’s ironic, I have 3 other spots that each are 3-way setups, but luckily, for all of those I have no desire to install smart bulbs nor do they possess any tricky characteristics to them !

[kreene1987]

I think the solution is less on voltage/current regulation and more on using the traveler as a power-line communication wire. Let’s assume that we are working with a 14/3 (3 + ground). If you send +120V hot over black, neutral over white, and ground, those are taken, but you have the traveler. What if instead of swapping 120V between hot/traveler, you used the traveler as a 120V data line. You would need the following signal profiles:

Up press
Up release
Down press
Down relase
Config press (why is there a config on these? Just for looks?)
LED bar modification

I have to assume this would need a lot more space on the primary switch (maybe this is finally where we remove local configuration firmware elements) to send/receive these signals.

I’m thinking something like my gigabit network over my power lines in my home (older home, no ethernet). I get full gigabit which is WAY more than this would need, using just my house neutral wiring network.

https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-PowerLINE-1200-Gigabit-PL1200-100PAS/dp/B00S6DBGJM

Just a thought.

Edit: this would ALSO resolve the smart bulb 3-way issue because you would be controlling the load at the main switch, and never swapping line between terminals on the switch. It would basically be a 2-way with a wired remote controller.

[EricM_Inovelli]

@Eric_Inovelli

Excellent question – the limitation here is the smart switch, as much as it pains me to say. Our current Z-Wave switches do not have the capability to work with non-Z-Wave smart bulbs in a 3-Way setting (to my knowledge, I’ll have to check with @EricM_Inovelli – we may have fixed this).

Firmware 1.56 for the dimmer supports the scenes up & down pressed, held, and released from the aux switch so you can now control smart bulbs from the aux switch.

@kreene1987 data communication over power line is actually something we considered for the fan + light instead of using RF. I will have to bring this up to the manufacturer.

[PJF]

Something I was just thinking. Does supporting this new aux switch mean the dimmers and switches won’t work with other manufacturers aux switches?

@kreene1987 - The current aux switches know the up and down button press or hold/release. So, that part works already, and since it currently uses only 2 wires it must have some type of rudimentary communications scheme to indicate to the dimmer what press is happening. However, if it’s almost impossible to capture a double tap with that scheme then I find it hard to believe the same scheme could be used for taps and to both power and control a LED strip. But, a different power and communications scheme might be possible with the traveler wire.

@Eric_Inovelli

Question for you guys though – what if we put a 3rd terminal on the aux switch that acted as a constant source of power?

Yes, that would power it and then you could easily do lots of stuff with it quite easily. I think it would only limit the locations where it can be installed in a neutral installation, but that should be OK if it exactly mimics the dimmer. It would definitely eliminate any possibility of using a dimmer and aux switch combo in any non-neutral 3-way installation.

[Eric_Inovelli]

@PJF

Something I was just thinking. Does supporting this new aux switch mean the dimmers and switches won’t work with other manufacturers aux switches?

What do you mean?

The Gen 2’s (Z-Wave - Red/Black Series) will still work with other aux switches (ie: HomeSeer/GE/Honeywell) and will be compatible with our, to be released, aux switch.

The Gen 3’s (ZigBee - Blue Series – and 700 Series Z-Wave) will be designed to work with other aux switches as well as our, to be released, aux switch.

@PJF

It would definitely eliminate any possibility of using a dimmer and aux switch combo in any non-neutral 3-way installation.

Yeah, you’re right – I think it wouldn’t work unless the, “leaked” power would be enough to power the LED bar, right?

I’m not an engineer by any means, but if you have the 25W minimum to power (or the bypass) the Z-Wave chip and LED bar of the smart switch, I wonder if it would be enough to also power the aux switch as in the diagram, the line is jumped over to the aux switch.

[Eric_Inovelli]

Alright, @PJF – I just redrew a few of the scenarios – hopefully I am on the right page.

Line/Load = Same Box

Line/Load = Separate Boxes

The one I can’t figure out is this one:

I don’t think it’s possible to run a line to both boxes, but I’m also super exhausted.

[PJF]

@Eric_Inovelli

What do you mean?

Well, to signal the LED strip means changing how the traveler works compared to other aux switches that don’t have an LED strip. Some kind of communications signal being sent to the aux switch is needed to tell the LED strip what to do. Also, if the current switches can’t interpret multiple taps correctly then something has to be done differently with the traveler signal for that too.

Your drawing cases are correct, In the third case you can’t provide line and neutral to the aux switch.

[MRobi]

@Eric_Inovelli

@MRobi

Another vote here to support double tap. I just swapped out a GE dimmer at the top of my stairs with an Inovelli one. The GE dimmer supported double tap through the aux switch at the bottom of the stairs. The Inovelli doesn’t Having an aux switch that has the light bar and supports double tap would be perfect!

Quoting you again lol my bad – can you let me know what your exact setup is (ie: GE Enbrighten + Hubitat)? This way we can mimic it. We tried with our current manufacturer to get this to work using the quick change in voltage/current/etc but the variances were too small for the smart switch to detect.

So, we’re curious on how GE’s and HomeSeer’s does this. We do have the other manufacturer (who’s making ZigBee) working on this feature though and they’re the ones building the aux switch.

The dimmer itself is a GE/Jasco 14294 and the add-on switch is the GE 12723.
I’ve had this combo setup on Smartthings, Hubitat and then most recently ZwaveJS on Home Assistant.
The double tap through the aux switch does not work with the GE 14291 which is their on/off switch. So it’s something different in the dimmer.

[kreene1987]

@EricM_Inovelli

Firmware 1.56 for the dimmer supports the scenes up & down pressed, held, and released from the aux switch so you can now control smart bulbs from the aux switch.

@kreene1987 data communication over power line is actually something we considered for the fan + light instead of using RF. I will have to bring this up to the manufacturer.

Fantastic. Even more reason to upgrade to aux everywhere (plus 1.56 breaking toggle… which I’m sure 1.57 will fix ;D).

In gen 2 having both options would be so nice. I personally do NOT have 14/3 because my fans were only lights to start, but for those who do that would be more reliable (not that they aren’t reliable, but 99% vs 99.9%, etc.)

And I agree with the traveller signal being a “mode” or parameter setting. It would operate completely differently than a normal 3rd part momentary switch, but that would be required to get LED bar to function properly I would think.

[gtognetti]

Does beta 1.22 for the LZW30-SN do the same? (support addon switch scenes). I have several of those in 3 and 4 way setups with GE addon switches and would really like scene control on some so I can disable local relay and control my smart lights via button presses.

Right now I have it working one way or the other - if I disable local relay, the LZW30-SN will trigger scenes to hass to turn my Hue bulbs on or off, but my addons do nothing. If I enable it, my addons all work but that way, of course, just cuts the power.

My addons are wired per the examples (Neutral + both travellers connected to Aux, line/load tied together) and the LZW30-SN is installed at the panel end.

Per above the functionality I’m looking for is in the latest beta for the LZW31 hence my question on the LZW30. Thanks!

[Eric_Inovelli]

Update – this project is more complicated than anticipated, but we’re working through it. The major challenge is getting all the features we know need to be in this switch to be successful and differentiated from our competition: LED bar, Notifications, Scene Control.

We think we have a solution, but we’re open to any suggestions and the manufacturer is doing some R&D against our idea.

Basically, what it comes down to in neutral setups is that if you can run an uninterrupted 120V to the aux switch, everything is, “easy”. If there’s a possibility where the 120V can be interrupted, there needs to be a smart bulb installed and smart bulb mode needs to be turned on so that the 120V is constant.

Once 120V is connected, we can use either @kreene1987’s suggestion of Data over Power, or we can use a proprietary RF. Our preference would be DOP, but we’re analyzing the cost. Hopefully either method would be able to transmit code from the smart switch to the aux switch and vice-versa (ie: notifications, scene control, led bar sync).

We’re working through the non-neutral scenario right now.

If there’s no 120V available, then the switch essentially work like GE’s where it’s just a momentary switch and we’d likely sell (or provide based on cost) replacement paddles that remove the LED bar so that you don’t have a blank LED bar. But we’re also open to suggestions here. It may not be worth it unless the overall cost is less than GE’s as you would likely have a switch that looks just like GE’s since the LED bar is removed.

More to come!

[Eric_Inovelli]

@gtognetti

Does beta 1.22 for the LZW30-SN do the same? (support addon switch scenes). I have several of those in 3 and 4 way setups with GE addon switches and would really like scene control on some so I can disable local relay and control my smart lights via button presses.

None of our switches currently support this unfortunately.

@gtognetti

Per above the functionality I’m looking for is in the latest beta for the LZW31 hence my question on the LZW30. Thanks!

I think what we were saying is that the LZW31 supports scene control, yes – but not from the aux switch. This is something we haven’t been able to figure out and why I was asking MRobi what setup he had so we could try to replicate it.

Our current manufacturer tried to figure it out, but from what we were told, the measurement of the taps via current/voltage detection was too difficult to achieve.

[stu1811]

I vote no to RF. I have 3 ways that are in totally different parts of the house. I doubt the signal would reach especially since all of my switches boxes are metal.

Edit: Maybe have a config option to work with non inovelli switches?

[harjms]

@stu1811

I vote no to RF.

Agree because you’d have to ensure you could have multiple AUX switches connected (4, 5, 6, way) and not interrupt the RF in the same room (meaning it won’t trigger other switches because it just multicasts).

[Eric_Inovelli]

@stu1811

I vote no to RF. I have 3 ways that are in totally different parts of the house. I doubt the signal would reach especially since all of my switches boxes are metal.

Yeah this is our preference too. Especially with the PTSD we have from the fan canopy modules.

@stu1811

Edit: Maybe have a config option to work with non inovelli switches?

I think this will likely be what happens when the 120V isn’t installed. The way I’m envisioning it is that the traveler screws will act as the normal aux switch (GE/Honeywell/HomeSeer) whereas the 120V is what powers the aux switch and provides the data for the LED bar from the smart switch. So, if a non-Inovelli switch is installed, there would be no need to connect the 120V and it would just act as a normal aux switch.

[kreene1987]

I have a few comments.

1. DOP is best for sure. I think we can all agree.
2. The actual switching using the traveller is eliminating the ability to use smart bulb mode effectively with current momentary aux’s. How does this solution plan to resolve 3-way PLUS smart bulb modes (always on or on/off only).

I think you send line + neutral to the aux for constant power, and use traveller as DOP. Add setting to switches for type of aux as “Inovelli” and let 'er fly. I’m no NEC expert but I think you will have to keep DOP at 110V, as reducing to 5V or logic level would violate NEC (I think).

Another arguement against RF would be that my main switch would have to be replaced with a capable one.

Another argument FOR RF would be for those who want to locate these where wiring isn’t already present connected to the main location. This would allow them to wire 14/2 line anywhere and have it act as a 3-way. I like this idea, except that my LZW36 isn’t as reliable as I’d like at ~15’ spacing with direct line of sight.

[PJF]

No RF.

So, the summary is that by using 3-wires it doesn’t give the new functionality with non-neutral and it also is limited in the neutral wiring configurations where it can give the new functionality.

Why not just 2-wires to power the aux switch and then transmit all the required switching and LED strip data over those power wires?

I’d almost think building a dimmer body with all the power switching components removed and associating the aux switch to the dimmer would be simpler to build, but then it’s not simpler to set up and would only work when paired to a hub.

[gtognetti]

Got it - if I replace the addons with smart switches do I wire them the same way (i.e. 4-way connect both travellers and neutral, tie off load/line)? Is that enough power for ZWave so I can associate them with the first switch?

[harjms]

Knowledge Base Redirect

Check out: 4-Way Installation (Using Three Inovelli Switches)