Lol good point. I also need to chill on the spending so it will wait a tad haha.
Welcome! I’m in a similar boat believe it or not – Everyone always assumes I am this super techie guy who owns a smart home company, but the reality is @EricM_Inovelli is the brains behind all the protocols and languages, whereas I know how to draw pretty pictures to make this stuff look cool. I know enough to be dangerous, but that’s about it lol.
I am super excited about the future though and what Matter hopefully can bring to the table and I definitely understand the love for Thread and the HomeKit community. Your post is a good reminder that I need to add some more love to HomeKit
Thanks so much for checking us out and again, welcome to the community, we’re excited to have you my friend!
LOL, nah, never too soon. I will admit, I’m way more hesitant with this one based on the 5-Button fiasco, but I’m extremely confident in this one (one because I’m managing this project myself and two because we’re in a really good spot with beta testing).
If I had to put a wager on it, I’d say likely April will be the release date.
The hurdles we have left are the following:
We’re on version 7 of beta firmware – I think we likely have 1-2 more iterations left.
Philips Hue integration (not a deal-breaker for release, but I’m pushing hard bc it’s a huge opportunity if we can pull it off) – right now, we can’t get the switch to work with the gateway (something to do with the key – we’re working with the ZigBee Alliance as Hue has not been much help)
UL Certification – it’s been submitted, but we’re waiting on finalization
FCC/IC/ZigBee Certification – this isn’t really a hurdle, but it’s what we have left to do
Honestly, the hard part is behind us – hardware has tested amazingly in multiple scenarios (neutral, non-neutral, etc) and the beta testers are crushing it. I can say from the bottom of my heart that this has been the best group I’ve ever worked with and this switch is going to be the new flagship (and that’s saying a lot bc I never thought anything could beat the Red Series Dimmer).
NET: I feel good about an April release (let’s say late April to be conservative) – I plan on opening up pre-orders once beta testing is complete and there’s a production run scheduled. I wish I could take more risks, but man that 5-Button really made me nervous about any pre-orders lol.
@Eric_Inovelli – first of all, I’m super excited that you guys are entering the Zigbee/Matter market. Personally, I’ve found Zigbee to be much more robust than Z-Wave and have removed almost all Z-Wave devices from my home automation system.
I am looking to replace the Homeseer HS-WD200+ dimmer which has individually controlled RGB LED’s. (In fairness, the device has been performing well – the issue is that it will lose routing as I continue to migrate off of Z-Wave.) My primary use case is to have a colored LED per person to display their occupancy in the house. A different LED blinks red when a family member’s Dexcom glucose meter indicates low blood sugar, etc.
Question: is it possible to add individual segment control of the LED’s instead of addressing the whole bar? I think it would open up a significant and valuable “statusing” capability.
Great question. The switched will be available to Canadians via our website the same time they’re available to US customers.
There will be a higher shipping fee of course but I promise we’re not making any money off of it.
In regards to when they’ll be on Amazon Canada or we have some sort of Canadian distributor, that remains to be seen. I am working on a few things behind the scenes that I hope to release to the public in the next couple of weeks. It’s taking a bit to solidify the details, but I promise it will be worth it as we have attracted some pretty large backers who can help us from an operations side of things.
I would bet they have distribution in Canada that we could tap into as they are one of the largest IoT companies (that many of you I’m sure use) - how’s that for a tease lol?
Thanks, I get more excited by the day too! We were hesitant to get into ZigBee bc we love Z-Wave and it’s what we’ve done for so long, but ZigBee has impressed us big time. I kind of wish we took the opportunity we had 3yrs ago to explore ZigBee… Oh well, never too late!
Wow, this is really incredible. I’ve never thought about the health benefits of notifications, but that makes total sense. What glucose meter are you using? I’d love to use this as an example down the road if you don’t mind. Once we get more staff that can write up tutorials, I think this would be huge to let ppl know it’s possible and then how to do it.
It’s like you are in our beta chat and have been monitoring it haha. We’ve been talking about this and how to pull it off for the first release.
We do plan on adding individually addressable notifications and the team is working on it for the next release of beta firmware. I’m not entirely sure on if there will be animations for each individual LED, but at the very least, they can turn different colors.
The problem we’re facing, however, is that the way our LED bar is set up, it has a diffuser in the design so that it can dissipate light to give that smooth effect of the LED bar going up and down (hard to explain - when I get to the office, I can edit this with pictures).
The individual LED notifications may look weird as it wouldn’t be as defined as the HomeSeer one that has individual dots.
So, we’re left with a challenge, if sell replacement paddles that look more like HomeSeers dot design, we gain the individual LED look, but we lose the smooth bar design (which is our signature look and also used to indicate dim levels). However if we keep the current design, my fear is that it will look weird.
This is why @harjms likely said, “stay tuned” lol.
TLDR: it will be built into the firmware, we’re just now working on how to best display it.
Will the Philips Hue Integration work like the with Friends of Hue functionality? I’ve installed a couple of Lutron Aurora dimmers, but the look is awful and they will be removed soon.
Since this look is similar to Sunnata dimmers, this would save me a BOATLOAD of cash on RadioRa3 Sunnata dimmers!
This is an excellent question and you must also be reading our beta chat bc Philips is a hot topic right now.
Short Answer
No, unfortunately these will not work like the Friends of Hue functionality (officially). We aren’t able to get Friends of Hue certified bc they are not taking any applications right now unless we want to add EnOcean to our switches (wut…?).
Long Answer
I was about to share the email, but noticed it said, “Classified” at the top, so I’ll just explain it.
We initially wrote in to see if we could be, “Friends of Hue” certified and had an intro call with their FOH team lead. Within 2 minutes, we were shut down lol. I’m exaggerating, but the gist of it was that they were super overwhelmed and short staffed that they couldn’t dedicate any time to new partners right now.
This was back in October/November timeframe and they said we can follow up after the new year, but it still would likely be a not right now type thing. They also mentioned something about EnOcean, which I hadn’t heard of outside of some reports that I read back in 2018.
We then reached out in early January to see if we could at least be added to their platform as an unofficial partner (it was a long shot, but I noticed other brands on the list that weren’t listed on their site, so I thought I’d try). This was also shot down. However, they were at least more clear this time that they needed us to support the EnOcean protocol in order to be a FOH partner.
At this time, we don’t plan on supporting EnOcean as we simply don’t have the resources. Looks like a cool protocol, but hard to pull off right now.
So, that leaves us with more of an, “unofficial” integration until we figure out what to do (maybe we’ll just have some variants or something of the firmware that are Hue specific that supports EnOcean).
At this time, we’re trying to get the switch to pair with the Hue bridge, but are having some issues in that the bridge detects the switch, but then fails during the key exchange. We’re thinking Hue put some sort of proprietary lock on their hub to only work with approved vendors.
This is, unfortunately, why I took any reference to Hue out of the hype video. It sucks bc I was really excited to pair up with Hue and we have gotten our switches to bind properly using Hubitat and Home Assistant (in other words, the switch pairs directly to the Hue bulb, but requires a third party hub to do it since Hue locked us out) so I know it works and is a limitation on Hue’s end.
I’m not sure how Lutron does it – likely the power of their name and a fat check to Hue via licensing and/or platform fees as I don’t believe they support EnOcean since their products run on a proprietary protocol.
These guys… I swear their product manager hangs out in our forum lol.
Note for legal purposes: I’m not privy to internal discussions at Lutron nor do I have any associations with them. I’m not claiming they have copied our design, but rather merely pointing out the similarities as brought up in the quote above. The above design is my opinion only based off public knowledge shown in sources and screenshots below.
I really like your products and I hope your new ones really are successful. Here are some comments:
The potential power of Matter is to get around Hue’s self-imposed limitations. Hue has signed up for Matter. If Hue implements the standard in some non-proprietary way then all the FOH and EnOcean restrictions should mostly go away.
There are reasons to criticize Lutron, but I feel the ones in your post are at best superficial. There’s a reason a market exists for $200 MSRP dimmers and $350 keypads. You really should have both RadioRA 2 and 3 systems in-house to understand the differences. I think there’s a lot of opportunity for you to compete against them. I have both Red dimmers (used to control Hue bulbs) and a RadioRA 2 system.
a) Sunnata design (non-smart) was introduced in November 2019. So they were not in any way copying your design. Sunnata controls are touch, not push. The keypads are a variation of the HomeWorks Palladiom line from ~2015.
b) Lutron is a pretty large company. Over $500m revenue and 1500 employees. They spend a lot on engineering and customer support. I believe their residential sales are much smaller than commercial.
c) as a result of #b Lutron is the gold standard. I’m pretty sure your Chinese suppliers use Lutron devices as a reference.
d) Lutron uses its own communications protocols that just f-ing work. See #b. Clear Connect A is low frequency 434 MHz. Clear Connect X is 2.4 GHz - some proprietary implementation of Thread/Zigbee. (They’re on the BOD of both groups). F*** Z-Wave.
e) Inovelli and Lutron Sunnata both miss the boat IMO in keypad design. Lutron RadioRA 2 keypads (6 + 2 buttons) (changeable in field) are better than Sunnata or Inovelli. And Control4 beats both companies in button configuration ability.
f) Your 2 button device is not the same as Lutron’s. Your’s is a 2 load control. Lutron’s is a 2 button, non-load control. So yours is more capable! Lots of Lutron customers have requested 2 load including fan controls.
g) Sunnata dimmers (and RadioRA 2 Maestro) are both forward and reverse phase capable. Any true competitor needs to come up to the same level at even the mid-market. Acknowledging that added capability is not costless. LED lighting continues to grow in complexity. The longer term trend in higher-end is away from line level control to low voltage in new construction. Because line voltage low end dimming mostly sucks. All manufacturers will need to adjust over the coming years as the technology flows down to lower-cost segments.
I really am hoping your products succeed. Smaller companies are the ones that keep the markets moving. At the low end Zigbee is OK. Anything higher you’ll need Thread/Matter capabilities.
Yeah, this is what we’re also banking on – I still don’t get the EnOcean route as this seems to be new, but I guess it is what it is.
Yeah, I must say this took a weird turn lol. I was not debating that Lutron’s technology is superior than Z-Wave/ZigBee, etc… nor was I debating that head to head the RA vs Inovelli are the same exact switch.
What I was debating was that their design was almost identical to ours. I also stated this was an opinion and to draw your own conclusions. Yes, as a small business owner, it really makes me upset that our switch design was copied and there’s not much I can do about it bc they’re such a huge company and like Amazon, they can do that with zero repercussions. It’s one of the risks that we take by being so open in the community with everything.
At the end of the day, I still like and respect Lutron and always have. We’ve taken inspiration from them on some things, as well as other companies, I’m not saying all our thoughts and designs are original – my gripe is that it seems like every design is similar to ours and it was released after the fact.
From what I’ve read this is a technology best suited for wireless devices - energy harvesting from the ambient environment to eliminate the need for a battery sounds fantastic. However, I fail to see how it would in any way benefit a mains-connected switch.
Lol yes, exactly! I am very confused. Like the FOH EnOcean switch that is on their website is actually a really cool idea.
Like, they actually solved one of the biggest issues (replacing batteries and having to run wires, etc) and it does align with EnOcean’s strategy of self powering and saving energy.
Don’t know. Looks to me to be stated from a place of ignorance, not knowledge. Like I said, I hope Inovelli comes out with products that compete with Lutron. Remember that Lutron is the company that created dimmers and they continue to develop new products for the market. They don’t seem to be fading away.
Did you see the details of my comment? It’s really hard to be innovative in a rectangular Decora sized space. Sunnata is a pretty different design from any on the market including yours and came out in 2019. It’s a capacitive touch product. No physical actuation involved. (Note I prefer the Maestro design.)
From a product feature perspective your Red dimmers have more “smart” features than Lutron’s dimmers. They work great with smart bulbs. But they fail at the core dimming function with local loads. Jerky dimming and raising are a no-go for me. Relying on non-cooperative 3rd party programmers has its limits as I don’t have to tell you.
From an electrical perspective Lutron’s newest dimmers have both forward and reverse phase capabilities. I worry a bit about your combination of switch and dimmer in the new Blue series. It’s a great idea that hasn’t been done before, including by Lutron. I hope you have electrical engineers independent from your OE vendor verifying the design.
I’m not trying to give you a hard time. But you really should be living with Lutron systems (Caseta, RadioRA 2, and now RadioRA 3) in your home or lab. They’re the gold standard and you should know intimately how they perform.
Yes, I read it. It dug deep into the nuts and bolts of Lutron’s switch (which is great, again not debating their technology and leadership in the market).
This talks about the technology and the capabilities of a $200-350 switch vs a $40-50 switch, not the design.
Yes, introduced in November 2019. Ours was introduced in February 2019, with leaked images in December 2018, January 2019. I understand innovation can take some time, so who knows, maybe we had the exact same idea at the same time independently. But that doesn’t explain the On/Off switch, 2 Button and the direct copy of the 5-Button. Again, I’m talking about design, not what the switch can do vs our switch.
The HomeWorks Palladiom line does not have an LED bar.
Regarding the touch LED, yes, amazing feature, I couldn’t agree more. But again, I’m talking about the design of the switch in particular.
Yes, great! They are an amazing company, I’ve owned many Lutron switches in my lifetime, in fact, I still have a Caseta bc I love the Pico.
They probably do – again, not arguing how great they are. I agree, they are an inspiration.
Yes, again, couldn’t agree more. Phenomenal company with a great proprietary protocol.
I disagree about the F*** Z-Wave comment, but I suppose, we’ll agree to disagree. I think the difference you’re seeing is that Lutron owns their own protocol and controls everything from start to finish, which is definitely a luxury and why they can command a premium.
There’s only so much we can do with Z-Wave – as we’ve always said, our switches are only as smart as the hub they’re connected to. Some hubs are great, while others are very limited. If we had full control over the Z-Wave implementation, I think you’ll notice a major difference. In fact, it’s why one of the major IoT companies (can’t say the name due to an NDA – but you can find it fairly easily online – in fact, they’re listed on Lutron’s site as a partner) chose us (and Z-Wave) for their luxury system. They’re charging over $100/switch. Far less than Lutron, I know, but way more than the consumer market bc they’re able to control the environment.
But again, this wasn’t meant to debate feature-set with Lutron.
I’ll have to take a look into this – thank you for bringing this to my attention. We don’t really have any button switches yet (aside from the hopefully up and coming 5-Button) but I will take a peek.
Great news lol – again, just wanted to point out that I was debating the design aspect. Their 2-Button is the one that is slightly different, and one could even argue our square buttons mimic Lutron’s as theirs came out first. It’s more the LED bar I am taking note of.
Yes, this is, as you put, the gold standard in terms of hardware. But you’re right, it comes at a cost. However, as mentioned, I was merely pointing out design, not functionality.
Thanks, I agree – and I appreciate the back and forth – one thing I hope we can both take away from this exchange is that we definitely listen and are constantly trying to improve our offerings. Everyone has their favorite brand, everyone has their own preferences, and that’s ok. If I’m being honest, I really like Lutron. As I said before, they’re one of the few brands we look up to and draw inspiration from. I am very familiar with their lineup. Admittedly, not as familiar with the RA line, but their Caseta and Maestro line, yes, I’m very privy to.
Agree regarding the smarts – in terms of the choppiness/jerkiness, yes, this is something that we’ve improved on with the Blue Series. While the Red Series IMO wasn’t as terrible as some make it out to be from a dimming perspective, there was for sure room for improvement, and I think you’ll see that we nailed it with the Blue Series. Time will tell though.
Lol, yes. Maybe one day we can break the chain and bring it in-house. I think 2022 is that year, but again, time will tell.
Eh, it’s been done before – Aeotec had an in-wall module that went behind the switch and I think HomeSeer just released theirs, but yeah, it’s a pretty new concept. Yes, this time, while we relied on the manufacturer for the design, it’s been checked and signed off on by a couple independent contractors. Not the Lutron gold standard engineer, but hey, we try.
I’ll stick with Inovelli in my home
I’m very familiar with Caseta – in fact, we have some at the office powering our no-neutral on/off scenarios (soon to be replaced with Blue Series). I will try out the RA3 for sure as I’m not familiar with them. Again, though, I wasn’t arguing around the functionality of a $250-$350 switch. I was arguing about the physical design of the switch (look not feel/functionality) being similar, if not identical.
Eh… idk, here’s at least 12 different examples of companies that don’t look similar to ours. I just went to the front page of Amazon and typed in, “Smart Switch”
– I still don’t get the EnOcean route as this seems to be new, but I guess it is what it is.
