Zigbee Fan Canopy Module | Project Cheryl

[jimmy]

@Eric_Inovelli

• ode: Ability to control smart bulbs and fans by locking power to the bulb/fan(s)

can’t wait !!

[Laecaon]

@Eric_Inovelli

@Laecaon

So I have the LZW-36 installed on my fan, and lost my reverse functionality. Everything else works with the LZW-36 module.

How did you accomplish this? I’m 99.9% sure this was not an option on the LZW36 bc I remember talking to the engineers about it and they said it would likely require another wire on the canopy and you’d have to splice it to the toggle on the fan. But I could be wrong. It’s been a while!

Oh, when you say you lost the functionality, did you mean you lost it when you installed the LZW36 bc it’s not available on the LZW36? I think I understand now, sorry for the mixup.

Yes that. My fan has no external switches. No reverse switch, no pull chains. Stock its fully controlled by the remote it came with. Installing the LZW36 is awesome, and I am willing to give up reverse for its features. But clearly somehow they are doing reverse from the canopy module.

I have an extra LZW36 that I intended for another room… looks like I should sell it now…

[jason_silva1990]

Please let me know if you do. Ive been trying to get one forever. Im in canada… not sure the shipping cost.

[ocgsupport]

I would like to suggest dual controllable lights. My fan has an UPPER and LOWER light each controllable separately. I could give this up by tying the leads together, but it would be nice to have dual light control

[drewconner]

I’m super excited for this. The Fanlincs in all my fans has been the only thing holding me back from ditching Insteon.

[MarkTr322]

@jason_silva1990

squish an rf learning module inside the switch itself.
No relays in the light switch. You click the fan button, and it sends a remote command.

Again, these are for DC fans… not ac.
300-450mhz rf sender + receiver built inside the fan+light switch. No physical relays. This can also be easy for ppl without neutral because the system would need to be on all the time anyways to receive remote commands.

I agree this would be great - I replaced my kid’s ceiling fan with a DC unit because it was the best enclosed option I found to put adjacent to a bunkbed, and didn’t realize until it was installed how much automation it was going to eliminate from her room. I had to change out the smart light switch for one able to handle motor loads, and turn everything off and back on and let her do the rest with the remote.

The technical challenges are significant though; off the top of my head, they include:

1. Fitting an additional antenna in the switch.
2. Include the “learning” functions in the firmware.
3. Come up with a way to program the learning through multiple automation system.
4. You lose synchronization if someone touches the stock remote.
5. If the switch is installed in a metal box you may have trouble reaching the fixture.

For comparison, Bond avoids a lot of these: by building a hub rather than a switch, they avoid #1 and #5. Configuring the hub via wi-fi and their own app addresses #2 and #3. #4 is probably still an issue, unless they’re listening for a signal from the remote and updating status accordingly, which Inovelli could also do.

Connecting a Bond bridge (or Broadlink, I think?) to your HA system and using a Project Walt controller (or any other automations) to signal it would be a much more straightforward approach; it’s probably what I’ll do when I find myself with an extra $100 to play with.

[MRobi]

@CodeMaster

If Inovelli can pull this (canopy module) off and give us the ability to pair this module with Project Walt, and Project Walt give us a two button switch with engraved plates, then we will have the exact same concept and look and feel that we love so much with a much superior product (fan and light switch).

You could take this beyond just the multi-button switches. Take your choice of 2-1 and install the matching protocol’s canopy module. Put the canopy module in smart bulb mode, put some smart bulbs in your fan so you can take advantage of adaptive lighting, then use double tap up for fan low, triple tap for med, quad tap for high. Double tap down for fan off.

Having a standalone canopy module opens up so many options. Somebody could even have the module up there with no switch connected and just control it from their phones or through automation. And since Hampton Bay stopped producing their version, there’s really not anything comparable on the market right now.

[CodeMaster]

[jason_silva1990]

Anyone with a lzw36, know if i can use it without the canopy module, and make routines to control a bond bridge with the lzw36 buttons?
I can disable internal relays i presume?

[BertABCD1234]

The wall unit of the LZW36 doesn’t have any relays — it’s basically a powered/in-wall remote. You probably can use that without the canopy module (when disconnected, as happened to some people, it thinks it’s turning things on/off or changing the level), though I don’t know if the fact that it might be constantly freaking out trying to connect to the canopy module would cause any problems. And yes, with the right hub, you could use an automation to do something via the Bond bridge.

But that seems like a very expensive route to go when your hub would probably let you use any button device (or whatever automation you want, really) to do this, and someone would probably pay you a hefty sum to get the endangered species of the LZW36 off your hands. Are you just looking for the nice etching?

[Eric_Inovelli]

@jvm33

The fan motor doesn’t interpret anything - it is a dumb device and can only react to what is connected to it --= i.e., the “start” and a “run” capacitors.

This is where I get confused. If the motor is, “dumb” and everything is controlled by the switch, why can’t someone use a dimmer?

Is it because the dimmer internals are incompatible with motors and the motors require relays instead of MOSFET’s or something?

---

Also so I can better pass the reverse request onto the engineers… What all would be needed inside the canopy module? Just another capacitor? Another wire?

Sorry I wish I had a better understanding of the engineering side.

[jason_silva1990]

@BertABCD1234

The wall unit of the LZW36 doesn’t have any relays — it’s basically a powered/in-wall remote. You probably can use that without the canopy module (when disconnected, as happened to some people, it thinks it’s turning things on/off or changing the level), though I don’t know if the fact that it might be constantly freaking out trying to connect to the canopy module would cause any problems. And yes, with the right hub, you could use an automation to do something via the Bond bridge.

But that seems like a very expensive route to go when your hub would probably let you use any button device (or whatever automation you want, really) to do this, and someone would probably pay you a hefty sum to get the endangered species of the LZW36 off your hands. Are you just looking for the nice etching?

Lol, the etching is very nice to have, dont get me wrong. But also having the 2 separate rgb strips for notifications is what i want aswell… having the extra buttons for fan speed up and down aswell as light brightness buttons. All the options on 1 manual switch that just makes sense for a fan and light switch.
Just wish i could get my hands on one to test with my bond bridge lol

[PJF]

This mostly isn’t correct. Ceiling fans don’t have start capacitors in them, and I doubt they have run capacitors. If it has a run capacitor, that doesn’t vary the speed, it just causes a phase shifted winding so the motor will run.

The canopy module will put a capacitor in series with the fan motor to effectively reduce the applied voltage which reduces the speed.

[PJF]

@Eric_Inovelli

So, if we put 5 capacitors in the canopy module (Start, Run-Low, Run-Low-Medium, Run-Medium-High, Run-High), how would the fan interpret which capacitor to run based on the canopy module?

The AC fan motors are just a simple inductive motor. You could put as many speed capacitors into the canopy module as you want. The capacitor size effectively changes the voltage applied to the motor and the voltage applied to the motor dictates how fast it spins.

[PJF]

@Eric_Inovelli

Again, help me out here (sorry, I’m trying, I really am) – how would the canopy module be wired in here to make this work? I’m understanding the switching part of the schematic, but I’m getting confused how the module would make this happen.

Also, at the fan, it looks like you have 3 separate wires outside the line/neutral/ground. In all fans I’ve tested, there’s typically just a motor and light wire. What is the third wire in this diagram?

Forget reversing. The user would have to cut into the internal wiring of the fan to remove the wires from the reversing switch and bring them to the canopy module. That is outside the abilities of most home owners and even many electricians.

[PJF]

@Eric_Inovelli

This is where I get confused. If the motor is, “dumb” and everything is controlled by the switch, why can’t someone use a dimmer?

Is it because the dimmer internals are incompatible with motors and the motors require relays instead of MOSFET’s or something?

With the correct dimming circuit you should be able to make an infinitely variable speed fan controller. The capacitors reduce the voltage to the motor and a dimmer type circuit would also reduce the voltage to the motor. It’s recommended not to use a dimmer online, but people have done it and it has worked for them. I’m thinking some fan motors overload the dimmers or some dimmers don’t work properly with the power factor of the motor. But, it could be possible. It might note be practical though because there could be incompatibility problems with some fans.

[tom.stewart1]

Capacitors do not “reduce the voltage” to the motor…they change the inductive field of the windings to create a different phase shift of that magnetic field to, in turn, affect the rotational speed of the motor. Dimmers introduce resistance to current flow, which causes a voltage drop across the dimmer, which presents that lower voltage at the motor. However, that lower voltage at the motor can cause the motor to not have enough of an inductive/magnetic field to drive the armature, which cause the windings to act as a short, which can cause excessive heat in the windings that can either burn out the motor windings or worse, cause a fire. A dimmer is definitely not the right answer.

[speed3b]

Thank you for your answer and the confirmation on this. I thought it was strange the previous commenter was contradicting everyone else, everything else I could find on this, and how the different speeds of an AC fan motor worked.

I was curious why dimmers were not recommended and how they could damage a motor. That makes a lot of sense.

[PJF]

@tom.stewart1

Capacitors do not “reduce the voltage” to the motor…they change the inductive field of the windings to create a different phase shift of that magnetic field to, in turn, affect the rotational speed of the motor.

No, that is not true. I work with motors every day. Phase shifting all the windings in the motor without reducing the terminal voltage would do nothing for the speed.

The speed control capacitors are put in series with the motor to reduce the voltage applied to the motor. The capacitor is reactive so there is no heat generated by it.

The power required by the fan blades as the speed changes and the way the motor is designed combine to allow the motor to operate at a high slip without overheating.

[dpasto]

@Jonesie

The LZW36’s are currently going for $250+ on eBay.

Damn, I still have a couple not in use. At this point maybe I should sell them while I can and just wait for the new module.

1. Didn’t fit in the canopy module. I was planning to revisit and find a way, but the smaller size of the new module would be better

2. I keep putting off because it’s a vaulted ceiling and my step ladder isn’t tall enough. Do I really buy a bigger ladder for one project? How will I get it home? (I miss the old minivan - anything and everything fit)